Paul Blunden: Hello! My name is Paul Blunden, and I’m founder of UX24/7, and we help product owners, designers and researchers deliver high performing products and services all over the world.
Today is an interview in my series with product leaders, and I’ll be talking to somebody who actually acts as a trainer and coach in the product management arena. So, something slightly different to the other people in my series, anyway, really looking forward to the interview. So, let’s get stuck in.
So hello, Phil, thank you so much for giving up your time to speak with me today for my benefit, and because we haven’t met before, and also for the audience, can I ask you to introduce yourself?
Phil Hornby: Sure, yeah, my name’s Phil Holby. I’m I guess I’m a product person, or I’m a person who helps product people these days. I coach train You want to do facilitation of workshops for part of people. I run a little company called for product people. But I also am the co-host of a YouTube channel called Talking Roadmap, where we explore the road mapping subjects with lots of fault leaders and practitioners
Paul Blunden: fantastic. And I might get you to share a link to that after it. So I can put it in the in the YouTube summary. So people can find that [update: https://www.youtube.com/@TalkingRoadmaps].
And how long have you been working in the product management arena and what it first attracted you to it.
Phil Hornby: How long this one of those really hard to answer questions? Because when do you draw the line? Because product is one of those roles that you don’t actually typically just starting, you’re usually doing it before you’ve got the job title. I think that’s my experience of finding. So I’ve been doing parts of product management for 22 years is, should we say? Because my old managing director, I started straight from university. He was an ex product manager. And so the way we worked as a business included a lot of product ways of working.
I’ve had the title formally, I guess. Probably officially, around 2,008 the first time. But I’ve been a product lead. I like products. I. I’ve been an engineer in the product development space as well during that time.
And how do I get into it? Well, like many product managers by accidents. I was actually The company I was working for was acquired for a product portfolio. I was one of the senior leadership team, and somebody needed to be the first product manager to kind of look after it.
That ended up being me. And then, like, about 3 months later, the new global head of product for the corporation that bought us was in the building and said, I’m rebuilding the global product team. Can I have him?
Then the rest is history, as they say, yeah, it. It’s interesting what you say. The. So I’ve done a couple of interviews so far. I’m learning so much about the product owner, pro manager space. Not so much product manager. I’m really keen to speak to you about that today. But it does seem to me that nobody’s chosen the career. Everybody sort of gone in by accident through a different way, and then ends up loving it and staying.
I think there’s definitely some truth to that. I mean part of the challenges. you know Packet high School when you have that meeting with your career advisor. It wasn’t on the list now, the role is actually existed in some form or another. Since about 1931.
It’s been around quite a while, but that’s more of the fast moving consumer goods, industry, poker and gamble. And it. It’s actually called brand manager there. But it’s the role. It’s more marketing oriented.
However, Neil McElroy, that started that function at Procter and Gamble also lectured at one of the big universities in the Us. Influence Hewlett and Packard. And that was really the start of technology product management and that kind of customer-centric business centric kind of thought process of making sure we’re doing the right thing, not just doing it right
Paul Blunden: right. And the one thing I’m really interested to ask you, because I know you. You work in the space very much in coaching is. How does the role of a product manager compared to the role of, say, a product owner or product strategy. Still, product marketing manager, even as you, you mentioned that.
Phil Hornby: So this it’s a hard line to draw between. In reality. if you talk to some people, the school of thought is product management. Products are the same thing and many agile. This would kind of would take that that viewpoint. part of the challenges, the role of products owner is actually only defined in 2 places defined in the swim guide, and in the safe kind of model which kind of inherits stuff from scroll.
No other agile methodology actually defines a product. Turner. For one, it’s just part of the scrum model, but it’s been taken up by many organ organizations. There’s a kind of joke in the product management industry that when the bunch of people got the Snowbirds got together and said, Oh, we’re going to find this better way of doing software development that she said, well, have that if you ever met a good product manager, and the answer is actually no cause. They’re all developers.
I’m not saying he’s really what happened. But this is kind of the meme-ish type joke. And so said, Well, great, we’ll create this new role. We’ll call it a product owner. It sounds like the more important than the product manager, because the own rooms, the business and the product manager just runs it and we’ll kind of create it. And that will be the perfect product manager.
How did this for the development team? The problem is, it’s not the perfect product manager for the marketing team or the sales team, or all the other parts of the organization. And so what they really do is they shifted the power use on the rule they moved it more to be more tactful, more operational, working with the development team all day long.
Yeah, being co-located, and there to answer the questions in all the stand ups actually, product manages haven’t really got the time. We’re out there with customers all the time we’re out there in the market. And that’s where I found the challenge. the value of that communication and bringing that context is super hard. Well, there’s a time constraint.
Similarly, you mentioned product marketing manager. That’s another role that actually hasn’t existed that long, either. But in some organizations, product manager, those both product management and product marketing or for strategy is probably the better way of phrasing it. You’ve talked about product strategist. It’s somebody do the product strategy in the products. Ownership rule the separate products marketing manager and some all 3 are split out. And to me it’s a scaling choice.
It’s about the so much work to do, and there so much breadth of products that you can handle. So are you going to narrow the amount of the products that you’re working on and take more end to end? Or are you going to take wider area of products and split the activities?
It is a, it’s a choice that you were making every organization. some organizations, some methodologies make a choice to combine the 2 roles, so some choose to split it out. I personally tried combining it in a previous life and found that a lot of the market oriented a lot of the strategic work just wasn’t getting done. It was too focused on the tactical day to day. And so what we actually did is said hold a second one is a part to them, really a product on someone who drives the scrum process. That’s the reality of it.
And so actually, that’s delivery activities of process activity. A lot of it is about managing the backlog. If we take it back to the actual day to day work. Maybe it shouldn’t be. But that’s the reality with the activities that we get to get done under that hat. And if you look at the scrum graph, these like one line, something like maximize, the value, the business value delivered by the development team, and that’s trying to encompass the entire achieve product management. It’s just not complete enough.
And I don’t think there’s any to say negative views from it, or any kind of bad intentions. It’s just a lack of understanding. Developers don’t really know what product managers do, and for an extent vice versa as well. And so they need to help to be there like the same with the marketing team. Meet someone that you really helps, sculpt the message and make sure it’s on what it’s lined up with, what we’re delivering, etc. And so we’ve got to try and figure out how we divide the activities up in a way that makes sense allows us to be effective as an organization.
And that varies from organization to organization. In reality.
Paul Blunden: Yeah, that’s really interesting kind of that goes with some of the things I’ve heard with other people. Whatever their job title they’re describing, all the activities you’re talking about, and it feels like the job title almost, is organization specific or down to the individual, and what they’ve where they’ve come from or where they think they’re going.
Phil Hornby: I mean, this is a this is a bit of a theory I’ve kind of been thinking about over the last few months. If I look back to what I did as a product manager 15 years ago. when I start my first product management, true role I had for profit and lost responsibility. I was driving the strategy at real strategy and vision for a huge product, and there were probably 300 developers working on it any given time.
Now, if we look at the ratios in a typical team today, it’s more like 6 to 10 to each port. I’m they’re not. They haven’t got a you know, ownership of that products on the all, the full product, to be able to take it, their own strategy, their own vision. It doesn’t make sense.
So really, one of the realizations I’ve had in particular, in the software world. because there are different types of product managers in different industries. Then the really what I used to do as a product manager is kind of what support director today is that next tier up with the people management responsibility laid on as well. This kind of an operational layer of this come in that that’s coming with the introduction of agile methodologies which is brought us close to the team, not saying, it’s a bad thing. It’s just a change. Things evolve.
Paul Blunden: Yeah, it’s still such a young industry, isn’t it? Really? But particularly around software development in the kind of Internet world. And you mentioned that, Phil about the product manager spending so much time with customers. I was really curious to understand whether you know the product manager is the owner of the customer in an organization at that sort of strategic level, or representing them spending time with them. what’s your take on that.
Phil Hornby: It depends. I’m going to be a clip typical consultant here. But the product manager needs to be out there and needs to be getting their own primary information, same as product marketing team does. I mean, you might call it user research. I tend to use the first discovery fact, I tend to talk about explore exploration and discovery.
I think there’s a stage before we do discovery because we’ve got to set out on a journey. We’re going to have a strategic context where we set out and try and find out the problems to solve. And I like to use. I guess I’ll use 2 things for Marty Kagan. Here 80% of product management is discovery, which means understanding the problem on this and how we solve it. And so that we got to be out in the market.
And the other part is well, if I can remember it now. Ultimately we’re trying. We’re trying to be out there in the market. Here’s the second one really product managers. We’re risk managers.
Now, there’s a couple of risk tax on them each we can use. If you from the design thinking world, you’ll think about desirability, viability, and feasibility. I tend to use Marty Kagan’s taxonomy again. So it’s value, viability, feasibility and usability. Classically, if you have desirability and viability, you have products taking viability design taking desirability and tech taking feasibility.
It’s not quite that simple, though the there is a definite element of the value which is part of viability, of desirability. Really, the products on. Is it valuable to our business, and is it valuable to our customers? And so I prefer to kind of. That’s why, for it to split you out of value, viable, or where products take most ownership. But value is also jointly and to an extent with design. Who, on usability as well I say are leading the charge on again.
That’s a that’s a controversial topic of is it one person in lead? Is it one person earning it? Is it what? That that their responsibility? Ultimately, it’s a team. The smallest unit of measure is the product team or you did a value delivery. And the product manager is part of that.
To use another quote going back to the portfolio of versus product manager things. Melissa Perry, who says products owner is a role in the scrum team product management is a career. And I I quite like that. It’s like someone’s got to wear the hat in the scrum team to would make the process work. But there’s a help. There’s a whole set of tasks and activities and understanding that is really what we call product management.
Paul Blunden: Right? That’s really interesting. And in your coaching you. What? What are the sort of main things that people are looking to gain from your coaching? What, what, what are the deficiencies, if you like, they’re coming to cure.
Phil Hornby: So I I’m going to address one of your point of the set. And there first not necessarily about deficiencies. So the classic perspective of coaching has been. Oh, someone must be not very good, and we need help to get to kind of come back to all right actually coaching, and it’s best is about them being their best. Not about dealing with short falls is about taking them from where they are to be the best. If you look at Hussein bolts, his coach can’t run as fast as him. but he can’t run as fast as he can without his coach. His coach is about making him the best he can be.
And what that looks like is unique in every coaching engagement. Like I work with some individual contributors all the way up to the chief product officer and at the individual contributors level. it tends to be more skills oriented. I’ve got this challenge, what tool techniques can I use? Help me work through them? So it’s almost like what’s on training in some respects there. But the Chief Products officer level. Frankly, it’s about confidence and having aspiring partner.
Because when you’re the leader in an organization, you can get quite lonely, and sometimes you’ve not never even had the who’s been your leader, like one of the people I work with. He’s risen through the ranks in his organization. and there’s never work for someone with product experience. He’s now the head of product globally for his organization. And he just wants someone to have a spark with. It’s kind of run ideas to check since check it like, how do I approach this? Does this make sense?
He’s super smart. He kind of knows the answers already, but I’m giving him the confidence that he’s going the right way on, maybe spotting the odd thing and a little nudge in a little steer
Paul Blunden: fascinating, and do does the sort of soft stuff come up a lot in your coaching, feels a lot of the things I’ve learned from these interviews is people say, yeah, it’s, you know, the people best, the soft bits that that almost cause the biggest problems or the biggest opportunities.
Phil Hornby: I just thought I had quite like a quotes, Christine Idiot would say all problems of PE to pull problems. And I think the reality is that’s what it comes back to. Product management. Don’t deliver anything themselves deliver everything through other people. and so product management is all about influence without authority, all about getting people going in the same direction. to deliver customer business value.
And so you’ve it’s all about people. It’s all about interpersonal stuff. Now, some of that is dealt with by what we use a tool and technique to be able to bring the evidence together, to be able to tell the story, to help people get a line. Some of it’s pure. Yeah, how to communicate, how to phrase things, how to position yourself in a meeting? organizational politics as much as we hate it. There are reality. So we kind of that sort of thing comes up quite regularly. Yes.
Paul Blunden: that’s amazing. And you you’ve mentioned that toolkit a couple of times. I’ve been learning about this sort of product owner tool. Okay? Well, how they describe it, what? What sort of key in the product managers, toolkit
Phil Hornby: off depends on the task you’re doing. I’m probably such a holistic room. I mean, if you look for, go back to history. look at Procter and gamble and places like that. It’s seen as a path into general management, because it’s a cross functional leadership role. But if we talk about the technical part of the rule. There’s well, it comes down to a lot of things that you talk about and design of experimentation. It’s what types of experiments you run. It’s understanding metrics. It’s doing analysis, it’s storytelling. It’s presentations.
And there’s a thousand different tools and frameworks. You know. One of my favourites at the moment is towards this opportunity solution tree. And the reason I like it is because it focuses on what’s the outcome we’re going to drive. I the change of customer behaviour. What do we believe? Are the problems jobs to be done needs that will move that needle.
And we prioritize at that level instead of, for example, diving down to the solutions which we naturally do as humans, we solution here straight away. But it said, if you prioritize at the opportunity level. then identify the solutions, and then the experimental room to see if they are the right solutions. It’s a great way of kind of getting that thought process going of what’s the right thing to do? Because ultimately a lot of product management comes back to you. Priority calls. It’s saying No, a lot. And it’s saying no, in such a way that it’s not a negative. It’s we’re not doing that now, because it doesn’t align with where we see the best opportunity. We’re not doing that now, because it’s not align with our strategy. We’re not doing that now because we don’t have the capabilities.
We’re not doing that now it’s often, in fact, it’s often that we’re not doing that now as opposed to. No. as I think, Steve Jobs once said. strategy is not about saying no to bad ideas. It’s about saying no to good ideas because there’s too many good ideas we’ve got to figure out which ones we’re going to move the needle that we want to move and take us in the right direction.
Paul Blunden: And how do product managers sort of prioritize? What are the levers they’re pulling there to, with all those ideas to sort of choose which ones to take forward.
Phil Hornby: all comes back to what’s the outcome we’re driving towards typically in a modern products organization that’s probably gonna be set through context to okay, ours, objectives and key results. Just keep that framework of what are we driving towards? Ideally? Those are done well by the mean team objectives instead of individual, because if they’re individual, we get everyone fighting against each other because they’ve got different objectives. So that product team, that smallest unit of value delivery.
these all aligned on the same objectives. And we’re looking at. Well, that’s the objective we’re trying to achieve. This is how we measured what things do we think can work towards that. And usually that’s going to result in all ideally, it’s going to result in some experimentation. Good product management and good product organizations are always in touch with the customers. They’re always doing you the discovery interviews or running experiments. And it depends on your context.
Yeah, I used to work in automotive. There are 20 car companies in the world. If every single week. I was trying to talk to someone, one of those companies. They get quite annoyed quite quickly whereas in B2C you can have a conversation probably every day, because it’s enough. People out there is the volume.
So you’ve got to be kind of sensitive to the shape of your industry, the cadence, the speed of the industry. But you’re out there discovering their need of understanding the needs and the problems picking the problems usually by the leadership layer that that we believe are best going to move the needle and then finding the right solutions to them and using that to drive the problem, the to drive the business forwards.
Paul Blunden: and you mentioned there about to the customer again. I’m really interested to understand your view on how customer-centric brands are, or the industries you work with. because I get very different opinions depending on the almost the layer you’re working at. And it seems, with product management being, you know that kind of general management, stepping stone almost that the perspective there is going to be different again.
Phil Hornby: So I think the best practice I hate that phrase by the way, best practice. But the general kind of perspective is, we should be well. In fact, being product led means being customer being led by customers, needs. So the first product lab is thrown around a lot. And people think all that means we’re just building products. And that’s all in charge. No, it’s about understanding customer market needs and using that to drivers forwards as an organization. And so it’s pretty cool. and that’s what the best organizations do sadly. There are too many organizations where the product people sit in their ivory tower.
Probably because they worked in the industry, their subject matter experts. They think they know how to do it. They think they know what the customers want, and so they just write a spec and go and build something, and sadly that usually leads to filled and unsuccessful products, and therefore unsuccessful customers and users at the same time.
Paul Blunden: Yeah. Well, obviously, that resonates very strongly with me in in a customer research for 20 years, and we still seem to be having a, you know, battles to get people to talk to customers. So that that is an interesting take on it that it sort of ceilings out almost in that product leadership area. Do organizations when they, you know, do they struggle to do research? Or do they struggle to convinced themselves to do it? So what are the barriers there?
Phil Hornby: So many? I mean, I guess what I’m going to answer a slightly different question. First, I think you’re in user research. So you’re in the UX space. And actually, what I found is that there’s a bunch of companies that had UX and the products. There’s a bunch of company had products under the ux. And then, as both functions are grown, there’s almost become a fight between the 2 functions of who owns the customer who understands them better.
My short answer is, we both do as does product marketing. We’re bringing different perspectives and different viewpoints. And ideally, we collaborate and bring those viewpoints together. Yeah, the keys in the it’s for me in UX is user versus in B to be the usually customer, very rarely the same person. And therefore there’s a difference in often the business perspective I, and that feeds much more to the viability angle of those 4 risks.
You know, if I’m Microsoft and I’m selling to a large corporation this a whole different conversation with the users versus the, the, the actual customers, the buyers. and we need to be sensitive to both sides of that. And I know that’s why we hit here. C. X. As well these days, instead of just UX and service design and all these other terms. And also we’re all trying to solve the same problem. We get that better view of the customer needs and make sure that we’re addressing them. Now, what’s the barriers to doing that? Well, partly it’s habit.
Partially, it’s our comfort zone. So if we think a lot of product managers come from development. And so they used to being they say, in a dark hole right in code. scared of going out and seeing customers, or it’s just a habit of not going out, and you know it takes time to go from at 0 to one. It’s really hot. That’s the hardest move from not doing anything to doing something. Once you started, it’s much easier to keep it going.
But it’s also this is going to there’s a management perception of we. We. We understand this. We don’t need to get out there. I remember going to Detroit for 24 h years ago, for a 4 h meeting with a client 11 senior people. You said that. Spend half a day with me. General, but it’s the largest single customer in my industry at the time.
That was undoubtedly a high Roi meeting, talking about that strategic direction, our strategic direction, how we were aligned on how we might support them. Bring in mind the cycle business cycles. There are 5 to 7 years. Typically, so you can real high on it for quite a while.
Well, my where are we getting paid for this? It’s like this is purely about discovery. I went, and I was able to make decisions for a good amount of time based on the insights again. There. But there’s that resistance of the time, the cost of like, no, we know what you just get. Jd, I go and build some this stuff. Go and deliver the focus on delivery. I mean, we’re in the agile context, right agile, has made it really good. Organizations really good at delivering fast. What they’ve forgotten is, are we delivering the right thing quickly and actually better to slow down and deliver the right thing than to just deliver stuff because you can.
Paul Blunden: Yeah, that reflects so much or mirrors the experience I’ve had is funny. We have clients who do a lot of evaluation, you know, in the agile space or whatever, and then they at some point we either convince them, or they convince themselves to do something in the discovery area, and really sort of open their vision a little wider, and it’s always that thing that they talk about forever. You know, it’s like 2 years later, this, we’re still referring.
Phil Hornby: So that foundational thing because they just learned so much from it. The problem that was a one time event. Right? They did it. And then they and it’s got to become a habit. It’s got to become continuous. Theresa Torres talks about continuous discovery habits. You’ll see people try to encourage that with a kind of objective like. Meet one customer a week now is one. The right number is 10, the right number. I don’t know the habit building that muscle memory of this. We go out and having a line of people coming that we can talk to.
People worry about. Oh, I don’t have anything to talk to them that might not have any questions to ask. I’ve never not had things to ask a customer. I’ve never struggled with that side. There’s always an interesting conversation you can have. Even if you’ve not got a direct research question to answer right now. you could have that conversation if you got that pipeline of people coming through when you’ve got a new question to answer there instead of I to cold start, go and find people talk to.
Paul Blunden: Hmm. yes, yeah, I couldn’t agree more. We’ve got a couple of customers. Actually, we have. We’ve got one, that O 2. Actually, they’re definitely focused on custom. And they have a nice metaphor. They have a chair in the room. That’s the customer’s chair, and you know nobody ever sits in it. But I was. Still. It’s quite. It’s a really physical way of keeping everybody sort of, oh, yeah, we got to keep thinking about that.
Phil Hornby: And it’s really effective. Actually, yeah, I’ve done some work with the same people, I think right? Okay, not surprising.
Paul Blunden: I’m conscious of talking about a couple of questions I really want to ask as well. Firstly, AI or generative AI! It’s coming along It seems to be gaining some sort of momentum. What are your thoughts on it? Do you have any thoughts on it, and how it might affect the world of product management.
Phil Hornby: So I’m going to refer to a conversation with the guy called C. Todd Lombardo, who wrote one of the authors of the book on Roadmap. And he quotes Steve, not Steve Jobs. He quotes Bill Gates back in the early days of computers. Bill Gates likened the PC to a bicycle for the mind and the right risk of the rationale, for that is that years ago there was like a study done of energy consumed versus distance travelled. And humans come out. Really pull. We’re like Number 60, or something like that on the list. And the condor is up there. Number one huge distances for no energy. It just sos and glides that our locomotion is pretty pedestrian in that respect. But the second, you put a human on a bicycle we kick the condor’s butt!
We’re toolmakers as humans. That’s what we do. We augment ourselves with tools and techniques and systems that are going to make that kind of enhance what we can do. And to me, that’s what I see. AI as I, I absolutely agree with Se. To on this one. It’s just, it’s stretching out what? What’s the of the possible, whether it’s understanding.
There’s a risk that people are going to get lazy and just go and ask the I. AI. For an answer and it doesn’t know the answer. It’s it. It’s all about what’s going into it. It can help us shape things. I’ve seen a lot of people talk about how we can write our product specs using AI like, please give me a Pr. D. For this.
If it can do that, then all it’s going to do is the boilerplate requirements that we shouldn’t even need to write down anyway the detail on the nuance at least for the moment, needs to come from human interpretation. Now, okay, if we record all those user interviews, and it does some sort of call processing on it. Maybe we get a lot of insights that we’ve missed out of that.
I think it shows a lot. It has a lot of potential. There was a someone else I was listening to a while ago who’s talking about how it all depends on where we are, on the growth and the capability curve of the technology. Some, you know, if we’re right at the bottom, it’s just kicking off, it’s going to take off, and it’s going to have the huge impact. If we’re right at the top where it starts to kind of steady state back off.
Then it’s a nice little incremental benefit. If we’re somewhere in the middle, it’s probably going to still be well changing. but it’s like we don’t know where we are on the growth of yet on that I don’t. All that capability curve I suspect, which towards the lower end of it, where it’s got a long way to go, but I don’t know.
So we we’re going to have to watch and see a little bit. But I all these kind of things are. We’re not going to need people doing this job, people doing that job. I don’t think there’s any point in history where really we’ve end up with less work, needing doing it just shifted work. And I think that this is why you know this. This I guess the real interest people see is that they starts to encroach on white collar work or kind of knowledge work, whereas everything else in the past is going into blue colour or kind of manual work areas. And this is start to, we kind of encroach on that different sphere.
The reality is, the computer can know every possible model out there and can kind of process it. We as humans. we know a bunch of them and we apply certain of them really well. So not so well, or is, it can have kind of expert capabilities different. So to me, it’s almost like, I want. I it’s just becoming another tool in my tool box.
Paul Blunden: Hmm, yeah, interesting perspective. Feel like, we we’ve spoken for ages. You’ve shared so much. I’ve got one more question. which is, what’s your biggest learning since what you working in the product arena, or your what best advice you can offer.
Phil Hornby: My biggest learning is there’s always something you to learn. I think that the growth mindset and the kind of embracing the you can’t know it all. And that you’re constantly striving to learn more whether that’s tools and techniques more about the customer, more about the business, more about the industry. To bring more context, to bring more knowledge, bring more capability to me. That’s the best thing you can do.
Paul Blunden: Brilliant. Thank you, Phil. It’s been fascinating to talk to you. I think you’re a champion for product management makes me want to, I all regret my career choices from 20 years ago. Because you make the job sound so interesting. Thanks so much for your time and sharing your thoughts. It’s been an absolute pleasure speaking and well listening to you.
Phil Hornby: An absolute pleasure to you, Paul. Thanks very much.
Paul Blunden: Well, that that was fascinating for me. I’m learning so much in this series of interviews. I started off thinking, although I’ve called the series of product leadership series. In my mind, I was thinking, I’m going to talk to product owners. And actually, as I’ve started to find people to talk to, they’ve been product strategist product owners as well. And now fill in the sort of project product management space and it’s just fascinating how it all opens up. And, as I said, he’s a real champion for product management. I do wish I’d gone into that to career choice when I was younger. it’s it sounds fascinating with all the elements he owns.
Anyway. my name is Paul Blunden, and I’m a founder of UX24/7. And we help product managers, product owners, designers, researchers deliver high performing products and services. You can find out more about what we do by visiting our website. That’s ux247.com.
And of course, you can find me on LinkedIn. Message me there. Share your thoughts on this area, and if you would like to be interviewed, do let me know.
And of course, subscribe to this channel, and there’ll be another interview coming along soon. In the meantime, thanks very much for watching.